As the co-streaming debate raged on, Alex ‘Nymaera’ Hapgood, found himself in the middle of an increasingly divisive discourse following a post regarding ESL’s co-streaming rules.
Insider Gaming spoke to Nymaera to get his full perspective as a broadcaster and a co-streamer about ESL’s rules, how co-streaming benefits the scene and potentially degrades the broadcast, and what can be done by both co-streamers and broadcast talent to alleviate those challenges.
As part of the discussion, Nymaera also called for a more amicable and cooperative relationship between the two models, hoping to break the antagonistic cycle which has seen the co-streaming debate in League esports turn increasingly toxic.
“We need to find some way to be more collaborative and to have a more positive relationship between co-stream and broadcast”
Nymaera on the potential future of the co-streamer/broadcast dichotomy
What are your complete thoughts on the ESL co-streaming rules?
I did make a tweet around that when it first came out as well, so I have that in text form, but obviously, character limits are a certain thing.
The ESL rules, as far as I read them, were largely pretty reasonable, with a bit of a question mark about how some of them would be implemented.
The big things which stuck out to me were effectively, if you’re co-streaming an event, you co-stream all of the event, you don’t jump out to do other things, so outside of the actual initial countdown and then some stuff after the trophy ceremony, you co-stream the whole event, so that means you’re not switching it off midway through, you’re not switching to other games. within reason.
There was actually a response from one of the ESL representatives that if someone’s ill or something like that, then obviously they’re not going to force you to turn on your stream, and then the other thing was how much of your screen you could take up with other things, and I think a lot of people got quite confused about that, because I’m not sure they read the whole article.
When you’re in-game, you can only cover something like 5 per cent of your screen, which is not a crazy amount, but it’s a fairly small amount, but if you’re in-game anyway, you shouldn’t really be covering the screen with a bunch of other stuff, so I do understand that.
When you’re on the desk, I think when it’s in desk segments in between games, you can cover like a third of your screen. So I thought realistically, ‘Okay, so you basically want co-streamers to actually stream your whole event,’ so that includes your intro and your outro and your desk segments.
You can’t just mute the broadcast. You have to have it audible. Now, I know a lot of people had some issues with that, but if you have something like side-chain ducking on OBS [a form of audio compression], it’s not a hard thing to implement.
It’s quite easy to have yourself audible and talk over the broadcast, because then your mic takes priority over that audio basically, because it compresses it if it gets too loud, and you can’t just cover the screen with something else.
There used to be so much great content which happened in the pre-show with game shows, witty segments, and things like cold opens, which you can’t really justify doing on a broadcast anymore, because the audience isn’t there.
Nymaera on how co-streaming affects the broadcast
I mean, a lot of streamers tab out to do different games or whatever between games, so largely, as someone who’s worked on both co-streaming and the broadcast side of it, that came across as quite reasonable to me, where you’re not just sat there for just gameplay, and then you just fob off and do something else between games, because at that point, I feel like you’re not actually there for the event.
The gameplay is obviously the most important, for sure it is, but I feel like you’re not really locked in on that event. I feel like the best co-streamers that an event wants are people who really focus on their event. The reason why this is important to me is because, as someone who’s worked on the broadcast side of things, there are plenty of times where many people remember, for instance, the LEC doing cold opens.
We don’t do cold opens anymore, at least they didn’t while I was there, largely because people don’t watch the start of show anymore, because people are off doing other things, they load in for the first game, they load in for draft, they don’t really sit around for that.
I understand that that’s a reasonable thing, but basically doing interesting things, which used to be the selling point, and in this case, the LEC, and I don’t want to talk just about the LEC, because I think this applies to more than just that, but it’s a good example for it.
A lot of stuff like post-game lobby, where you actually get to talk to the players and learn a lot about their personality… started getting less valued because people would just turn off the stream after the last game, stuff like the pre-show.
Nymaera on how co-streaming rules can help the broadcast
There used to be so much great content which happened in the pre-show with game shows, witty segments, and things like cold opens, which you can’t really justify doing on a broadcast anymore, because the audience isn’t there, you know, 70% of your audience isn’t going to watch that, if that, less than that, even.
I think one of the things which we used to keep in our head during broadcast is that if you go through the day, hour on hour, 70% of people won’t have watched what you did an hour ago or two hours ago, or maybe the start of show, something like that, it’s a large percentage…
I can’t remember where those numbers came from, but basically, numbers aside, you have to keep in mind that most people don’t watch most of the content of your show, they’ll drop in and drop out.
Particularly with the advent of co-streaming and them coming and going from a broadcast, it meant that a lot of stuff like post-game lobby, where you actually get to talk to the players and learn a lot about their personality and what they’ve been struggling with and what they’ve been succeeding with from LEC, that started getting less valued because people would just turn off the stream after the last game, stuff like the pre-show.
We don’t have as much interesting content now because people don’t watch it, and this is a response to an evolving industry, that’s reasonable, but I think that with stuff like the co-streaming roles, maybe that could roll that back a little bit and give the broadcast a little bit more room to manoeuvre with the content that can actually get to the audience.
Just by saying, ‘Hey guys, can you keep your stream on, basically, for the intro and the outro,’ it makes a lot of difference, you can yap about other stuff, but at least make sure that the content isn’t going to waste there, it means that the broadcast isn’t at a bit of a healthier spot, and then obviously you can’t tab out to do a bunch of other things.
I had some vile stuff said at me from people who thought I was attacking individuals. Well, I’m not.
Nymaera on the toxicity of the co-streaming debate
So that was my initial response, I understand there was some criticism in terms of, well, can you not rewind to replay things and analysis, and I think there definitely has to be some room for that, where you can actually break down some plays a lot more analytically, rather than just have to go off of the broadcast replay, but those were my initial thoughts coming through, so I thought they were actually quite reasonable.
I tweeted about that, and some people were not very happy about that, because I think one of the big things that came out of this was, because Sjokz had a much worse experience than I did, but obviously, I had some vile stuff said at me from people who thought I was attacking individuals. Well, I’m not.
If the broadcast dies, then every co-stream is worse off. we’ve seen that with the LPL.
Nymaera on LPL’s English broadcast
I want to make it very clear, co-streamers are doing exactly what they should be doing right now, they’re building a brand for themselves, they’re building their community, and they’re doing what’s right by themselves.
I think that there should be some more structure to make sure that the broadcast is more focused upon in some of those co-streams, because I think if the broadcast dies, then every co-stream is worse off, we’ve seen that with the LPL, for instance, in League of Legends.
The broadcast went down, partly because co-streamers didn’t even use the English broadcast; a lot of them would switch over to the Chinese broadcast, partly because certain games were happening at the same time, but it meant that the broadcast died, and now the LPL scene is much worse off for it in the international coverage.
So all of this stuff is in context, there’s a tonne of mixed things around… As I said, it applies to LEC differently than it applies to the EMEA Masters, to LEC, to LCS, to LCK, but that was my immediate thought.
I know that’s a chunky response, but that should really give you a picture of how deep this topic goes on both sides of co-streaming and on broadcast.
At the end of the day, the broadcast should be interesting enough that co-streamers want to watch that stuff. What I think is a problem is that I don’t even think broadcast is given a fair chance.
On co-streamers and the broadcast
Is there anything else you think the broadcast can do to make it more engaging with co-streamers in mind?
I think that the content of the broadcast has always had to adapt to the audience it’s broadcasting to, and right now a lot of our audience is through co-streams.
At least when I was on LEC last year, one of the things we tried to do is put in segments where we had like a minigame where the chat of co-streamers could also play along, and it was actually really disheartening to see that a lot of co-streamers just hadn’t tuned in for that segment, and they had gone somewhere else.
At the end of the day, the broadcast should be interesting enough that co-streamers want to watch that stuff. What I think is a problem is that I don’t even think broadcast is given a fair chance anymore to prove that.
Now, if you don’t like the broadcast, I actually completely understand, you know, it’s a very subjective thing. A lot of people are coming out and saying that they wouldn’t watch LoL Esports or anything like that if they weren’t watching one of these big co-streamers.
So the onus is on the broadcast to be interesting, but there’s no incentive for the broadcast to do that if it shows that it’s not working. That means that the broadcast is more on maintenance mode, and it’s like we’re just doing, I’m not going to say bare minimum, that’s not true…
I think there are a lot of very talented people pushing for as much interesting stuff as possible. But they wouldn’t go the extra mile and wouldn’t have that extra budget allocated to them in the way that 2019, 2020, 2021 LEC had, when it had this real chokehold on the esports industry, it was an incredibly well-produced show with a lot of creative minds behind it.
On broadcast, the main goal is not to build a brand for yourself as talent or the broadcast, it is a secondary goal somewhere along the way, but your goal is to the products, to the games, to the players, to the teams, whereas as a co-streamer, and this is completely understandable, your prerogative is, ‘how do I make my community and myself get into the best position possible?’
Nymaera on misaligned incentives in co-stream vs Broadcast
I think that you have to adapt to your audience, but one of the things that I think is not talked about enough in this discussion is the fact that I don’t think the broadcast is given a fair chance, even with the content that they do have.
I think that stems from a different thing, which is that on broadcast, the main goal is not to build a brand for yourself as talent or the broadcast, it is a secondary goal somewhere along the way, but your goal is to the products, to the games, to the players, to the teams, whereas as a co-streamer, and this is completely understandable, your prerogative is, ‘how do I make my community and myself get into the best position possible?’
A lot of time that’ll be stuff which isn’t focused on the players and the teams, of course it will be a lot of the time, particularly when the teams give you interesting stuff, but particularly when it comes down to like bottom teams and teams which are not as immediately interesting or it’s a region which you haven’t watched as much, so you don’t have that narrative, your prerogative, unlike the broadcast, is going to be very, very different, and I think that ends up leading to a bit of a difference between the products too, and I’m not sure that’s quite taken into account as well right now.
I think one thing the broadcast has tried to do at points, but I think had to have been more integrated from the start, was to try to involve co-streamers with the stream more.
Nymaera on missed opportunities with co-streamers
Do you think there is anything the broadcast can do to recapture some of that audience?
It’s very difficult from the broadcast side of things, because I actually think the broadcast talent are doing a lot with what they can do.
This is why stuff like the co-streaming rules are quite important, because I think that again, when they do try to do something different, I feel like they should still be given a fair shot. I think a lot of people just in the back of their heads now are like, ‘Oh, co-streams are the superior product, the broadcast is not what it once was.’
I think the broadcast does need to strive to be different in some way, to stand out again, but that’s obviously going to be such a hit and miss thing for you. Again, you’re putting this message onto so many split places.
I think one thing the broadcast has tried to do at points, but I think had to have been more integrated from the start, was to try to involve co-streamers with the stream more.
Actually have segments where, after a game, you bring in rotating guests of co-streamers to have a quick, even if it is just a 10-second thing, like post-game thoughts. ‘Well, what did Kameto think about this? What did Ibai think about this? What did Caedrel think about this?’ Bring in the co-streamers in a little bit more of a structured, formatted way.
I think that the relationship, at least between fan bases, and I think in some cases the individuals themselves, and the broadcast, have been antagonistic.
Nymaera on the broadcast vs co-streamers dynamic
Now, it doesn’t mean that has to be a big part of the show, because I think that there are issues about having co-streamers bleed too much into the main broadcast, and then actually the broadcast not being its own thing.
This is very LEC-centric in this case, I think it would be a different answer elsewhere, but I think that the relationship, at least between fan bases, and I think in some cases the individuals themselves, and the broadcast, have been antagonistic.
I think there have been some cases where some co-streamers attached to a team have thought that the broadcast has been treating their team unfairly, where I actually think they’re just completely incorrect.
So, for instance, there was a lot of s**t thrown at the LEC broadcast to the way that they think of a team like MKOI, because of that EUphoria episode, which I think was poorly worded, but I don’t think it was Satan itself, you know?
I think once you start off on the antagonistic foot, it’s very hard to rebuild that relationship again. I would have really liked to see much more friendly, collaborative products being put out there, because at the end of the day, both the broadcast and the co-streaming should be aiming towards the same goal, which is what’s best for the scene, best for the players, best for the teams.
Nymaera on co-streamers and broadcast working together
And from that point on, I think the perceived notion was that the broadcast was out to get MKOI, and I just don’t think that was true. I mean, we have plenty of clips of us praising them, saying that Jojopyun was the best laning mid laner in the LEC, that Supa and Alvaro were super creative, an incredible bot laner, blah, blah, blah… You know, plenty of different players that we could put praise towards.
I think once you start off on the antagonistic foot, it’s very hard to rebuild that relationship again. I would have really liked to see much more friendly, collaborative products being put out there, because at the end of the day, both the broadcast and the co-streaming should be aiming towards the same goal, which is what’s best for the scene, best for the players, best for the teams. Now, of course, the co-stream is looking at what’s best for themselves as well.
But I think the broadcast, in terms of the co-streaming relationship, I think we need to find somehow, some way, and there are multiple ways to achieve this, to be more collaborative and to have a more positive relationship between co-stream and broadcast.
For broadcast itself, it’s a much more difficult question because I think the resources have been shown to be more limited now. It means that you are less able to kind of throw things out there which have a bit more weight behind them.
Nymaera on the state of League of Legends broadcasts
I’m not saying this applies to every co-streamer who are antagonistic either as well. Again, there is nuance to this. I’m sure there are things we can get taken out of context with what I’m saying here.
But I think there has to be something built, a rapport built more between the co-streamers and the main broadcast, and actually having the feature on themselves. For broadcast itself, I mean, it’s a much more difficult question because I think the resources have been shown to be more limited now. It means that you are less able to kind of throw things out there which have a bit more weight behind them. Iit’s very hard for them to kind of like drum up these resources now for bigger ticket kind of items.
But obviously, broadcasts should really be focusing on player personality wherever they can possibly get as much player time as they can, because getting that from a co-stream is a harder thing to do because they’re not there in person all the time.
Broadcasts really need to put players front and centre, teams front and centre. They’re really trying that in the LEC with Vitality, fantastic personalities there.
I think they’ve put some great personalities about. But yeah, I really hope that audiences give them a chance to treat that fairly.
If we are reliant on co-streamers, then the consistency of broadcast will be at risk.
Nymaera on the risk of co-streaming to the broadcast
Obviously, the ESL rules were announced for CS2 and Dota 2 events. Why was there such a heated reaction to the rules in League of Legends spaces?
I think it’s because I think audiences have noticed that broadcasts are not what they were a couple of years ago, and like I said, there are multiple reasons why I think that people are trying very much their best.
I think part of it has been that a lot of co-streamer audiences have become quite antagonistic between… And the audiences, I’m not saying the co-streamers, but the audience has become quite antagonistic towards the broadcast itself. You know, I felt that working on broadcast.
I think a lot of it has been because this conversation has been brought up in bits and pieces over time. So it’s just reopening something that has happened before, and then I think this really exploded in a different way.
All of this kind of comes around like things like Caedrel co-streaming the Sidemen football match that came out at the same time as the LEC. Which again, if the rules aren’t in place to stop him, then he’s doing the right thing. And again, I don’t want to blame Caedrel for doing that because Caedrel should be doing what’s best for him.
But if you’re an LEC viewer and then you see, actually, he’s missing two games of LEC for this bigger event that’s happening, it opens up the conversation in a bigger way, which is if we are reliant on co-streamers, then the consistency of broadcast will be at risk.
This also comes in the conversation as well particularly in League of Legends. I’m not sure what’s happened with Counter-Strike on this level because I’m not as knowledgeable on that scene for the broadcast side of things.
The broadcast went down, and a lot of the co-streamers didn’t consistently come back to the region. So now LPL as a whole… the overall coverage has gotten worse.
Nymaera on the effects of the loss of the official LPL Broadcast to the scene
LPL died. The LPL broadcast died. We don’t have an English broadcast anymore. We have an only co-streamer model, and what happened in that case was what I alluded to earlier. In 2024, I saw an esports tracker that said the viewership came from something like two-thirds from co-streamers rather than the main broadcast.
And as someone who was on the official LPL broadcast for a couple of years before it died, and then as it died as well, I lost my job to this. Obviously, I have an emotional pull to this. Take that into account.
You know, I would go back, and I’d watch those co-streamer streams, and I would see people go into the Chinese broadcast because they didn’t think the English broadcast was very good in some cases.
They would tune in to the Chinese broadcast at some points because of those two simultaneous games happening at points to points that they would go to a different game instead of the English broadcast, and that led to the English broadcast being undermined.
And I think there were reasons for that, and if the broadcast could have been better, I think that’s on us. But what happened was that the broadcast went down, trying to drop the broadcast. Europe picks it up for a year, but then they only broadcast half the games. So it wasn’t like we were doing full coverage either.
Then what happened was the broadcast went down, and a lot of the co-streamers didn’t consistently come back to the region. So now LPL as a whole, which is a more niche audience within the League of Legends community, but it’s one which has got a lot of history, and it’s a very successful region, the overall coverage has gotten worse.
Now we’ve got great projects, I cover it myself at LPL English are doing a great job, but there’s no funding for it anymore, which means that the capabilities are a lot worse. Now, we don’t have that same ability to have the same level of broadcast in terms of keeping high, high-level talent on the broadcast, having graphics support, and all of these other things.
I would say it’s life support for League right now. But I think that there are long-term issues with League of Legends that it can’t fix.
Nymaera on co-streaming’s effect on LoL esports
So when it comes into League of Legends in particular, there is a there is this kind of boiling, continual conversation of whether co-streamers are saving viewership or actually they are hurting the long-term viability of esports.
I think it’s actually somewhere in between. I think that co-streaming is a bit, I would say it’s life support for League right now. But I think that there are long-term issues with League of Legends that it can’t fix.
I think in some cases, particularly LPL, if you take away from the LPL, the LEC kind of bias of this conversation, because that’s where a lot of this came about.
I think that there are some cases where it has led to a degradation of coverage of these regions, and we’ve lost that consistency of broadcast.
I understand, you don’t want to sit there and watch adverts, but if they’re not there, then the main broadcast hurts from that.
Nymaera on ESL Rules, co-streaming and advertizing
A year or two ago, it felt like co-streaming viewers were viewed equally to the broadcast from a business sense. Do you thnk that now appears to be shifting in terms of how it’s financially benefiting or hurting the scene?
I mean, I don’t think the main broadcast is getting anything directly financially from co-streaming.
If anything, the view which I have, and I think others share, is that co-streaming has become a zero-cost alternative to the broadcast, which Riot can then basically say, ‘There’ll be alternative content here. If you want different ways to enjoy the product, go do that through co-streaming.t The broadcast is not going to have that spending.
So I don’t think that financially, the main broadcast is gaining anything from co-streaming. I suppose you could say that the viewership helps it in that way. But as I said, I think that I think there are issues with this because this is what a lot of the ESL rules came into as well, which I suppose adds to the context there too.
One of the big problems about co-streaming is that, with the way it is currently, co-streamers tab pit during the adbreaks, which I understand, but that means that the sponsors, which are on the main broadcast, aren’t actually getting anything from a lot of that co-streaming where they’re not engaged with the sponsors.
And I understand, you don’t want to sit there and watch adverts, but if they’re not there, then the main broadcast hurts from that.
Many people are of the opinion that if the main broadcast can’t survive on its own, should it survive on its own? And there is actually some logic to that.
Nymaera On whether the broadcast is entitled to last
The big thing about co-streaming is that it gives you an alternate way to enjoy the product, and how it should be implemented is that it serves a group of people who don’t have a product for them, where they wouldn’t watch the main broadcast, so there is something for them.
I think this really works for other language broadcasts rather than just the global English broadcast for many leagues because sometimes they don’t have an established main broadcast.
So, Ibai and Kameto have done a very good job serving the French and Spanish scenes. I know that they have their own official broadcast, but they brought a level of content that was unmatched within their language.
And then of course they added some extra level to that and saying, ‘Well, actually now we have our teams attached,’ and we have more like a fan base side to it, where you can go to that if you’re a fan of that team, that is a very unique product. That’s great, and I think that has very much helped.
So in terms of the industry side of it, there’s obviously a lot of positives, which so come from co-streaming in terms of serving different audiences, which aren’t there.
This may still end up being in a situation where the main broadcast is undermined, and then co-streams themselves end up going to become worse quality too later on.
Nymaera on the current balance of co-streaming and broadcast
So, I think the industry feeling is that it’s not symbiotic right now as it should be.
In terms of how the main broadcaster benefits from it, many people are of the opinion that if the main broadcast can’t survive on its own, should it survive on its own? And there is actually some logic to that.
The main broadcast has to pull its own weight and it has to survive, obviously. But my take is effectively, if the main broadcast degrades over time, because actually the co-streams become the preferred way to watch.
The main broadcast potentially dies, as we said in the case of LPL, and then the co-streams quality goes down because they use the main broadcast to produce their own product too.
So I think right now, I think the industry standard is that it feels like there’s a lot being taken from the main broadcast by co-streaming, and while co-streams are very beneficial for the scene, this may still end up being in a situation where the main broadcast is undermined, and then co-streams themselves end up going to become worse quality too later on.
So I think the industry feeling is that it’s not symbiotic right now as it should be. And while co-streams are good, they cannot take down the main broadcast if it does end up leeching away too much. So financially, maybe there should be a readdressment somewhere.
There are multiple ways I suppose people have talked about it. I’m actually not certain about how you fix that, but I think that’s one of the main thoughts, I think, within the industry.
Can you elaborate on Riot’s current rules for co-streaming and whether you think they will tighten them to get more eyes on advertizing etc.?
Well, I know Caedrel’s been talking about bits and pieces about that on LEC streams. I know that he tried to use the new overlay, and he struggled with that.
I’ve seen other co-streamers use that, and they work fine with it. So I’m not actually sure what the rules are with that.
He’s talked about getting some warnings from LEC. So I actually, because I’m not an LEC co-streamer, I’m actually not sure what’s put in place there.
Obviously, I’ve co-streamed First Stand and Worlds last year, and largely they’re common sense rules in terms of like, don’t do anything, which brings negative attention to the product/Riot.
That’s basically what it boils down to. It’s like, don’t talk about stuff that this isn’t the place for. Don’t disparage Riot or things like that.
I don’t think there is a, in terms of comparing to the ESL rules, I don’t think, at least from what I’ve experienced, that’s something which is in place for a lot of the Riot products.
As a product, you’ll start there and be like, ‘what the hell?’ Like a hundred thousand of my viewers have just went away mid-game
Nymaera on co-streamers switching games and regions, and its affect on the broadcast
I think a big thing that is missing from Riot right now, which I think would be game-changing for co-streaming.
I don’t think it’d be good for co-streaming in a way, but I think that products might eventually look into this, which is that League of Legends has an issue where, because it’s a league format, you only have so many time slots available to play games.
One of the big issues was, particularly for different points, and when it comes to the playoffs, there are some big overlaps too.
If you have LCK and LPL playing, both of them are going to overlap. One of them has to lose out to the viewers gosomewhere. What co-streamers do is they jump between games.
I think that if ESL rules came in, you wouldn’t be able to do that effectively, and that would definitely hurt.
On the whole, it hurts LPL more than LCK, because again, LCK has a very high-quality global broadcast. The co-streamers have been there for longer. They have the most international success, but now LPL is a world champion. More people are getting interested. But then obviously there’s not the same place to, even then, I don’t think that LPL has had nearly the same viewership, not even close to it.
And what will actually happen, you’ll notice that a couple of years ago, you go back to 2022, LPL playoffs actually overlapped with LEC times too, if it went long enough. So if it went to a game five, LPL would be on at the same time as LEC, and then you’d have the issue of, well, I have to hop between LPL and LEC, and the gameplay is very different, the fan bases are very different.
But neither product wants people hopping off their product to go to another one. No one wants to do that. Technically, we’re all within the same ecosystem, but that’s the kind of thing where I understand as a viewer is way better quality for you to see everything happening at the same time, not having to jump between things.
But as a product, you’ll start there and be like, ‘what the hell?’ Like a hundred thousand of my viewers have just went away mid-game because the other one started it from the region that they actually want to watch, or their co-streamer wants to watch instead.
Riot has lost its ability to be a central hub for esports. Co-streamers have done that instead.
Nymaera on co-streamers taking the role of LolEsports.com
Back in 2015, 2016, whatever, you would have the Lol Esports site being a hub for this stuff. I think co-streamers have replaced that hub now, because if you’re going to watch like the game of the moment, the game of the hour, the game of the day, you would go to a co-streamer to figure that out. Whereas 10 years ago, you would go to Lol Esports site to do that.
Now I don’t actually have any inside information on this, but obviously, I think Riot was rumoured to have their own streaming service that they want to set up. As far as I’m aware, that’s, that’s not the case now.
I mean, again, I don’t have inside information, but I think Riot, the big thing is with the fracturing of the internet culture in general, because there’s not just like five websites that everyone goes to, and now there’s like a million or whatever. Riot has lost its ability to be a central hub for esports. Co-streamers have done that instead.
Now I think the degradation of the Lol Esports website actually plays into us a lot more than people think because Riot now has to rely on these big community figures to do what they used to do off their own website.
If you have issues with co-streaming as a structure, call out the structure, not the co-streamers themselves, because that’s when things get really tribal, and things are already tribal enough.
Nymaera on the FlyQuest co-streaming video
Your thoughts on the FlyQuest co-streamers video?
It was a bad video, and that doesn’t help because if it’s a bad video that comes across as an ad read being out for yourself, people aren’t even going to listen to the content in it.
There were some points in there, which have I think have some merits, but the problem is you’ve effectively written a hit piece.
Jamada was talking about it on PowerSpike the other day as well, which I agree with, but you have pictures of Dom or Caedrel coming up in the thumbnail or in the video, and there’s like this suspenseful evil music or whatever coming through as they bring them up.
Don’t make them your enemy in this. Like, if you have an issue, it’s the structure of co-streaming, not the co-streamers themselves. I’ve been very clear about this myself. I think others need to, too.
Co-streamers are only doing what’s right for them. If you have issues with co-streaming as a structure, call out the structure, not the co-streamers themselves, because that’s when things get really tribal, and things are already tribal enough. The fans just go insane over it.
Because one of FlyQuest’s main problems was effectively, ‘if you’re just kind of doing non-transformative content, then all co-streamers are doing a leeching away the scene in general, but our co-streamers are different, they don’t do that.’
My worry now is how much have you, as a viewer or you, as a casual actually changed your mind or become more informed because of this discussion? I don’t think many people have become that much more informed… I think a lot more people have become a lot more angry about it.
In what world do you think that was going to come across well? Now, I actually do think they have a point in terms of my ideal view for co-streamers is you bring in non-overlapping audiences, which wouldn’t watch League of Legends normally.
I think the ideal co-streamer is a huge VTuber, is a huge YouTuber, is a huge personality from somewhere else, and you bring them in for like a week or two, and then they go away, and then you bring in someone else to do the same thing, and then you just see who leeches over.
This has had great success in Japanese League of Legends, which was on a massive downturn. They had some huge VTubers come in, and that’s really helped them out.
I was hearing that, I think it was Street Fighter that ended up doing quite the same too, with some, some fighting games. I’m not going to say this is going to work everywhere.
I know that YamatoCanon wholly disagrees with me, and that’s within his rights, and he says that you really want passionate individuals who you can be familiar with the game, and there’s a real point to that too.
Monte and DoA, that was who I tuned into for OGN every day, people like PapaSmithy and Atlas too, or Deficio and Quickshot or Krepo or these big names, which dominated the early scenes of League of Legends. That familiarity is very, very big too.
I think these big creators have, in a lot of ways, saved League of Legends because they’ve kept the passion and the content coming out.
Nymaera on big personalities helping LoL esports
I think Yamato has a great point there. I think realistically, though, that co-streaming, should be people who are going to bring in an audience that wouldn’t watch League of Legends another way. I think that’s the highest potential output for co-streaming.
And I think FlyQuest did touch on that to an extent because they said, ‘Oh, you know, we’ve got people like Basil as a co-streamer.’ Basil’s great, by the way. They’re great artists and they’re a very chill co-streamer.
I do actually watch their co-streamer fair about when I watch LCS, but the point just gets lost. You become the big enemy in this, and people don’t listen to your point.
I don’t think it was well delivered. I think you’ve made, you’ve decided to be antagonistic to get the clickbait, the rage bait effectively, and this ended up muddying the waters. And so I think while the FlyQuest video ended up opening up the conversation again, I think all it’s done is made a lot of people upset.
It has brought up some bits of conversation. My worry now is how much have you, as a viewer or you, as a casual actually changed your mind or become more informed because of this discussion? I don’t think many people have become that much more informed. I don’t think that that many people have changed their minds that much.
I think a lot more people have become a lot more angry about it.
Is League of Legends esports truly in apocolyptic shape?
Look, I think League of Legends will survive in some form or other for a long time. I don’t think League of Legends will, and LoL esports will disappear. I think there’s too many people engaged into it.
And as long as the big creators stick around, that’s a big part of it. I think these big creators have, in a lot of ways, saved League of Legends because they’ve kept the passion and the content coming out.
I think a lot of content creators stepped away from League of Legends. I mean, you go back 10 years ago, like ThePeacePigeon, Badministrator, they had the League of Legends rap battles as well. There was so much content.
Dunkey! These crazy content creators that came out from League of Legends, there aren’t nearly as many of them now. I mean, there’s people like Dumbs who’s doing some great stuff. Dumbs is excellent, but it used to be the game for so much content, and that’s just not… I don’t get that feeling anymore.
I think co-estreaming has filled that gap somewhat to be like a personality-driven content, which people are very energised by, and they’re very engaged by that. That’s really cool. I think they’ve done a great job there.
I don’t think there’s a talent pipeline anymore… I don’t see a way to make it as a Tier 2 caster now. I’ve given a lot of people industry advice over the years. I just don’t think there’s a way to financially survive as a caster if you’re not main broadcast on one of the Tier 1 broadcasts. I don’t think it’s possible.
On Tier 2’s broadcasting collapse
In terms of broadcast, I think broadcast is in a very, very, very dire state. There is no tier two scene anywhere anymore, really. I can barely afford to pay my rent off of co-streaming, and I’ve been one of the most experienced casters of this era of League of Legends.
I’m still newer by many standards, right? I started amateur in 2020, got my first paid job in 2022, and a handful of years later, myself and my brother have to somehow pay rent in Berlin off of this stuff.
What we’re used to help us before is having stuff like NLC, paying decent money. I mean, that went down over time, but that was paying pretty well.
And EMEA Masters was a really good pay cheque, even if it wasn’t nearly as much as LEC. It was a consistent gig where if you are doing well from the ERL scene, you could use that to pay your rent, and you could use that as an ability to say, ‘Okay, I will pursue this as a job opportunity. The same thing would happen with some of the NA tier two stuff.’
We’ve obviously been through a number of changes too. And then the dream was, ‘Okay, maybe I can get picked up by LEC for guest days or LCS.’ I mean, obviously, it’s a very tight broadcast.
There are lots of very, very talented people. You’re not going to get them easily. Or of course, something like LPL as well, which was online, which was one of the big draws for a lot of people in the casting scene.
The question is, should the main broadcast survive in the way that it is right now? Well, if people aren’t interested in it, people aren’t watching it, people don’t value it, then perhaps it shouldn’t survive.
Nymaera on the future of the Broadcast
It’s like, ‘I can do this anywhere in the world. I don’t have to move for this,’ which is a big thing for that too. I don’t think there’s a talent pipeline anymore.
And I think that you go forwards another couple of years, I think that if talent start bowing out, I get really worried for who’s there to replace them because financially, I don’t see a way to make it as a Tier 2 caster now. I’ve given a lot of people industry advice over the years. I just don’t think there’s a way to financially survive as a caster if you’re not main broadcast on one of the Tier 1 broadcasts. I don’t think it’s possible.
That raises into question about the future of broadcast in general, because if the talent’s not there, then the broadcast obviously suffers as well, particularly if they have to replace them over time. And I guess the question is, should the main broadcast survive in the way that it is right now?
Well, if people aren’t interested in it, people aren’t watching it, people don’t value it, then perhaps it shouldn’t survive. It’s a pretty depressing thought to have, but if the main broadcast is not, if it’s not justifying its own existence, then perhaps it shouldn’t be a thing, I suppose, if people aren’t interested in it.
So, I’d be very interested to see what happens if main broadcasts do end up dying, because like I said, I think there will be an issue of co-streamers not viewing all the games, because perhaps you won’t find a way to watch all the main games unless you watch like a clean feed yourself or whatever from whatever region.
And I think you’d lose a lot of that storyline building because, you know, for instance, someone comes up from EMEA Masters, there’s no broadcasts for it, you play catch up on the storylines.
Someone like Yike, SkewMond, Naak Nako, whoever, comes up from these amateur/Tier 2 scenes, the full journey. I mean, someone like SkewMond, I cast SkewMond in 2021 in like UK Tier 2, so it was below NLC, and I cast him in some of his very first cast games ever.
I was just casting UKLC with HipRain, another great caster from the scene who’s found it very hard to kind of make a living because he was one of the people affected by the NLC drama earlier this year.
I could tell he was a Nunu one trick back in 2021. I’ve got like four or five years of story for this guy that’s now been, I think he peaked as perhaps the best jungler in the world for points this year.
Imagine how it means more, it means more when you see that journey. And of course, for someone like LPL, there’s always been a problem really of LPL where people pay attention to LCK in the same time slot.
So the stories from LPL, you play catch up on them when they do well internationally, and not when actually they become a player that could perform well internationally. You have to play catch up for it.
When you lose an official broadcast, that’s going to become more widespread. But I suppose the question is, you know, if people don’t value that, should it live in general? I’d be very sad. I mean, they’re incredibly talented people who can do incredible work, but if it’s not valued, should it live at all? That’s a scary thought for myself in that position. But that is a question which I’m sure many people are asking themselves.
Does it just have to go back to grassroots building up, build it up again and see if you financially find another way to make it work?
END OF INTERVIEW
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Darragh is an Esports Journalist for Insider Gaming specialising in Counter-Strike. He loves to explore how esports teams work, or why they very often do not.
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